Side Project Podcast 12: Mindfulness, Meditation, and Focus with Erin Selover

Ruthie Miller (00:11.95)

As always, we’re talking about ways we can be more proactive with our health in middle age and really what we can do to stay stronger for longer. And we’re going a little bit off the regular beaten path today to talk about mental health and kind of ways we can improve our focus.

Leyla Seka (00:33.142)

Again, all these conversations start in the bathroom, or for Ruthie and I, over Zoom bathroom. But we were talking about meditation and how people come to meditation. I’m from California. I grew up in Berkeley. There you go. All the generalizations you can make. Go ahead and make them.

Leyla Seka (00:38.278)

All these conversations start in the bathroom, or for Ruthie and I over the figurative Zoom bathroom. But, you know, we’re talking about meditation and sort of how people come to meditation. I’m from California. I grew up in Berkeley. There you go. All the generalizations you can make. Go ahead and make them. But one of the things that definitely came to pass was a story I’ve told a number of times, which had to do with when I was working.

Ruthie Miller (00:45.902)

Ha!

Leyla Seka (01:01.25)

One of the things that definitely came to pass was a story I’ve told a number of times, which had to do with when I was working. So, you know, for the last 25 years, I’ve pretty much been working full time. It’s only the last couple of years that I haven’t been working, you know, 10, 12 hour days, thinking about work all the time, working all the time. That’s the kind of job I had. And I had two kids and a husband and aging parents and all the other things. But I was working, I was working at Salesforce.

Leyla Seka (01:08.178)

You know, for the last 25 years, I’ve pretty much been working full time. It’s only the last couple of years that I haven’t been working, you know, 10, 12 hour days, thinking about work all the time, working all the time. That’s the kind of job I had. And I had two kids and a husband and aging parents and all the other things. But I was working, I was working at Salesforce and I was working really hard and there’s a lot of shit going on for lack of a better term. And I remember everyone kept telling me to calm down. Leyla, calm down, calm down, calm down. I constantly at work and it started driving me crazy. And I really don’t know what to do. I don’t even know what they’re talking about. Calm down? I run in the red anyway. I’m a hot person, right? So I run pretty high and pretty fast anyway. So eventually I started thinking, well, this is going to become a problem if I don’t come up with a better answer than I don’t know what you’re talking about. 

So I learned the CEO of the company was a meditator, and he very much encouraged me to find someone that would help me meditate. Now even though I was from Berkeley. I kind of thought meditation was bullshit. But I had to do this. This is my job and I was taking it pretty seriously. And what ended up happening is I met Erin. So that is who is on the call with us today. This is Erin Selover. Ruthie normally introduces people, but I’m going to do it really quickly. She’s a Dharma teacher and spiritual strategist. I came to Erin feeling very frustrated by everyone telling me to calm down, which I think is the reverse of what Ruthie’s heard of coming out, which is more of a focus thing, which she’ll get to in a second. But Erin is the person who taught me, yes, how to meditate, but more importantly, how to calm my inner critic and start to accept myself how I am, which has been a huge journey over last 10 years and continues constantly, which has helped me to kind of feel better in the place that I’m at. So I’m gonna let Ruthie say a minute here of kind of how she came to this meditation topic, and then I wanna bust in and start talking to Erin. 

Ruthie Miller (03:23.542)

Yeah, so I had a conversation with a good friend of mine and she also works full time and she has two kids and aging parents and all this stuff too. And she was telling me that she feels like her life is booked in 30 minute slots on her calendar. And she’s always multitasking and always doing so many things that even when she does have the chance to sit down and read a book, it’s really difficult for her because she cannot quiet her mind. She cannot stop multitasking and thinking about everything she has going on. So I was kind of talking about this to Leyla, and she said, we need to talk to my friend Erin. So Erin Selover is with us. Erin, as Leyla said, is a Dharma teacher and spiritual strategist. I will also point out that she is a licensed professional counselor. So I believe in Erin, you’ll have to set us straight. She started out as a counselor and then sort of moved into the world of spiritual advising and that kind of thing. So Erin, why don’t you jump in and we’d love to hear more about you and also just how you came to this, why you chose to start doing this.

Erin Selover (04:22.938)

Yeah, thanks Ruthie, thanks Layla. It’s good to be here and I really, yeah, I’m excited about you all talking about these topics that often don’t get talked about around middle age. I’m also in this age bracket and this is what’s happening with my friends as well as we’re like, wait a minute, you we’re in a big change. We’re in a big transition and no one has talked about many of the things that we’re starting to uncover are happening in our personal lives and professional lives. So I’m just really grateful that you’re doing this to support your community and happy to be here to share. It’s been fun. We’ve learned a lot, I think. Yeah. So I actually started, I actually started meditation and then went into psychotherapy. So what happened is I had had a big change when I was in my early twenties, where unfortunately one of my college roommates had passed away suddenly. Wow.

Ruthie Miller (05:11.374)

It’s been fun. We’ve learned a lot, I think.

Erin Selover (05:35.934)

And in the depth of that huge change, I needed guidance and I needed orientation and I needed perspective. And it was the Buddhist framework, the meditation framework and Buddhist framework, what we call the Dharma, that really helped me understand what was happening for me in that moment.

And so I started a daily practice. I started to do things that were not part of my culture, that were not familiar to me. I was raised in blue-collar Detroit. I had never met anyone that meditated. I had never met anyone that did yoga, like nothing. I lived with, it was like a factory. People worked in factories. It was a very different culture.

But I really needed something that was like, you know, was like one of those crisis moments and it helped. And then it was through the practicing with meditation that I realized, there’s actually sometimes psychological things that were going on too that the meditation couldn’t help. So that’s when I then went and got my psychology degree in somatic psychology. And at the same time was deepening.

continuing to deepen with the meditation, but realized psychology did also have something to help me with the healing that I was in, not just regarding my friends. My friend had opened up, you know, other things as well, as often when we go through big changes, whether it’s metaphors or the death of a loved one or changes in a job or, you know, any kind of change, oftentimes when the change is shocking,

it opens up things that have happened in the past for us too. So that was my doorway into this work of practicing meditation. And then after about a decade of practicing, began to get support and mentorship and guidance to start teaching it. 

Leyla Seka (07:40.038)

So Erin, why do people come to you? I mean, I know why I came to you. I shared a little bit of that. But initially it was really because I wanted to get promoted, let’s be clear. 

Ruthie Miller (07:49.757)

The truth comes out.

Leyla Seka (07:51.842)

Yeah, that’s really what it was. Because I sat across from Aaron for a year and was like, meditation is bullshit. Breathing is not going to help me get promoted. Breathing is not going help I was very irreverent in my own way initially as a reverse reaction as being a child from Berkeley covered in yoga and meditation my whole life.

Erin Selover (05:35.934)

I’ll say for you, Leyla, though. I mean, you were resistant, but you kept showing up. 

Leyla Seka (08:14.588)

I was curious.

Erin Selover (08:19.518)

Exactly. You were curious, and you kept showing up. And you’d hear things and then you’d come back and you’d be talking about what you heard. So I think this is something that meditation, and I’ll get to the question, that meditation is really helpful with is that there’s what’s happening and then there’s the story we’re telling ourselves about what’s happening. And those are often not always two different things. And I think Ruthie, to your question on the quieting the noise, sometimes, I mean, there’s many different reasons why it’s hard for us within this point in modernity for us to quiet down, you know, and really take time to be with ourselves, even if it’s just a moment, you know, before bed or a moment between, you know, turning the keys off in the car and walking our path, you know, walking the path to the house. Often it is because there’s things that are happening that we don’t have the skills or the capacity to face, you know, and we’re needing support to be able to just be able to be with whatever is emerging that it’s hard for us to even admit to ourself.

And again, that’s not why it’s good to kind of make yourself focus and make yourself take a step back even, you know, starting with this small two minutes, three minutes. Is that I mean, I know that’s not ideal three minutes, but is that I mean, it’s huge. yeah. I mean, we say sudden awakening, gradual cultivation. 

Ruthie Miller (09:39.438)

So that’s why it’s good to kind of make yourself focus and make yourself take a step back, even starting with the small two minutes, three minutes. I mean, I know that’s not ideal, three minutes, but is that a very basic starting point?

Erin Selover (10:07.336)

Yes! Three minutes over the course of 10 years is a lot of minutes. And this was my point to Leyla is that Leyla kept showing up. There was no resistance. All the questioning and the skepticism, which is actually healthy. We want you to, I want you as a person who wants you to heal and know what is true for you to question what I say. I don’t want you just to believe me. I want you to take what I’m saying, see if it resonates, turn it over, come back, have a dialogue. So just to say this is why people come, you know, people often come to me because something has happened, there’s some change, and they’re wanting support with the change. They’re wanting support in orienting to the change that they’re in.

Yeah. And for your question around the time, it really is the consistency. It’s taking the time to be consistent with the practice over time. We can get into what the practice is. It’s like exercise. You know, if you just do enough all the time, it doesn’t hurt when you do it. You know, it’s sort of a similar, it’s weird, but it’s sort of a similar thing with meditation. 

Leyla Seka (11:16.402)

It’s like exercise. If you just do enough all the time, it doesn’t hurt when you do it. It’s sort of a similar, it’s weird, but it’s of a similar thing with meditation. I was consistent because I knew I was running too hot. It was just a matter of time until I blew. I was mad and there was never enough time and everyone wanted something and I wanted something else and worried about this. I was so edgy that I was like I have to figure out a way to slow it down. And I really did resist for a year. And you know the funny thing about meditation that I didn’t realize is how much it attaches the mind to the body. And how much learning how to breathe differently helps me. Like I’ll give just one example and then we’ll get more into Erin. But you know, I often talked in front of large groups of people, which isn’t really a problem for me normally, but sometimes I would get super anxious and I came up with breathing patterns. I have like three different ones and they take between three and 15 seconds. They are not a long amount of time, right? They are really fast. But before I’m getting on stage or before I’m being sort of forced to perform. I will do one sometimes if I’m feeling a level of anxiety and sort of feel my whole body go down a little bit and then walk out clearer, right? And that’s a bit of an exacting example, but it sort of shows generally that at least for me, when I was capable of like quieting a lot of the noise I make myself, I’m hard on myself. I think we all are. I think the women of our generation who grew up during that time were told to suck it up. And we also all disassociated from our bodies in weird ways, or at least I certainly did. But a lot of my friends did too. And I think finding that connection again, sort of again in middle age helps you kind of regain your footing, at least it did for me. You know, I felt a lot more stable in myself, even when the winds were going wild around me, I eventually found a way to root down. And meditation is a part of that. And just for the record, I often use Headspace, so I use an app. I often don’t do it every day, right? So there’s no right way to meditate, which I think was another huge point.

Ruthie Miller (13:29.55)

It’s interesting because I’ve always heard about meditation and yoga and these things being called a practice. And I get that it is a practice that is not something you are ever perfect at. But listening to you guys talk about this, I can really understand why it’s something you need to continue to practice to improve at. You need to be able to maintain your focus for first three minutes, then four, then five, eventually much longer.

Erin Selover (13:52.194)

And Ruthie, to your point, and then Leyla’s point where you said, like, is that important? I can’t remember the exact language that you use, but like, to make yourself, I think you said, to make yourself do it. And I think this, like, just this word, like, make ourselves. Like, oftentimes, as women, conditioned women, there’s a lot of, like, shoulds. There’s a lot of demands that we put on ourselves, a lot of expectations. And the framing in the context of meditation is one of which we call loving kindness or tenderness. So for many of us, what happens when we start to practice meditation is we put that overlay of should or have to, or this is another thing that I’m doing to improve myself, to be a better mom, a better partner, a better daughter, a better all the things. And meditation is really a space for us. It’s a space for us to bring like tenderness, kindness, acceptance, understanding. But a lot of times the first step is working with what Leyla is calling the inner critic or could be, you know, the part of us that’s always trying to do the right thing, or it could be, you know, the one that’s always judging other people. But we’re bringing, we’re bringing compassion and there’s, there’s techniques like techniques that I mean, I use, helped hundreds of people, probably thousands of people use these techniques that we can train, we can actually train our hearts and minds to be kind to ourselves.

And so it’s bringing that first step is often bringing that kindness and tenderness to ourselves. And then we try to bring the kindness and tenderness and then it’s like, there’s not enough time. You need to get going, you know, X person needs this, Y person needs this. I need to do this. I don’t have time for that. Whatever the stories are. And it’s bringing tenderness to those stories and, you know, recognizing that self-connection is a really important life skill. Self-connection is a really important life skill. And when we’re not centered and we’re not connected, often as the leaders that we are in the different contexts, whether it is with the family or the business or, know, when we’re not centered, everything else goes awry.

Ruthie Miller (16:13.934)

It’s a really great lesson.

Erin Selover (16:33.78)

And so that time that we put into self connection and in being with oftentimes what can come up when we go underneath the judgments is sadness, is mourning, is loss, is feeling the things that we don’t wanna feel at first. But what then happens when we slow down and start to feel them is what we call in the Pasana meditation, which is the kind of meditation that I teach, which I can again talk about more is what we call the Pasana joy. And there is that in Leyla knows Leyla smiling because I’ve said that we know this so much. But when we connect with what’s true, even when it’s painful, there’s a joy in touching the truth. We all know that experience and we can train in living more and more in that place of touching what’s true. 

Leyla Seka (17:32.874)

And when you do that, at least for me, when I did that, I started to realize how many narratives I’d been telling myself. And it’s okay, right? It’s sort of how we’re all trained, but narratives about success and what I needed to do and what my father expected of me and different sort of things that I had been telling myself for so long, I just believed them to be true. And then when I actually took a step back and stopped hating myself for a second, don’t get me wrong, I hate myself all the time. There was a certain amount of self-loathing to push myself that hard for sure throughout things, just improving things and all this type of stuff. With the step back, I gained a greater appreciation for my parents or at least a greater understanding, right? And like for my siblings and my husband and my kids and my friends. It really did change my perspective on the way I interact with people. It’s funny because people come up to me, was out last week with some people from work and they’re like, you’re so fun now, it’s so mellow. You’re so much better now that you don’t work. And in my mind I’m like, yeah, I’m not gonna sit there and correct them, right? I’m like, okay, yeah. And I think I do think that meditation has a bad rap outside of, you know, California, maybe in New York. mean, really, you live in Houston. Do you have a lot of friends who meditate?

Ruthie Miller (19:23.018)

A handful, and it’s growing. And I think these apps like Headspace and Calm and that kind of thing has done a lot for sort of destigmatizing it. I don’t know if that’s the right word really, but I think now with the rise of social media and we’re always connected all the time, I do think people here and in places outside of California are starting to realize that we do need to clear our minds and we do need to quiet the noise at some point and it’s still kind of a question of how and also making yourself do it and that’s what I struggle with is, know, I know that that would help me yet still it’s like do I want to sit down and figure out some way to meditate for a few minutes or do I want to scroll Instagram for those couple minutes, you know, and it’s like, it’s like an addiction. Totally. I mean that in a very literal sense. We are all, myself included, addicted to that rush of seeing a new photo or a headline or whatever is grabbing us these days. So I’m happy to learn more of these strategies for just how do we stop that? I mean, do we need to just download one of the apps and force ourselves to do it? Are there other tips you have, Erin, for, you know, if you’re starting from scratch, where do we go? What do we do?

Erin Selover (20:42.22)

Yeah. I mean, I think your point, Ruthie, about the addictive nature of technology and many of the things, not just technology, but also some of the food, you know, food science. We live in a culture with overstimulation for our nervous systems. Right? And so it’s with a lot of compassion and care. We’re like, okay, to try to choose to do something other than just go with the habit of stimulation. So we have to be smart about it. We have to recognize that we’re, you know, you know, animals, like, you know, we’re little animals that get on the cycle of the stimulation, and it’s hard to get off the stimulation. And that just makes sense. So it’s not to like judge ourselves or make that a problem. It’s to be, to see it clearly and then be smart about it. So the, the, I think the purpose of insight meditation or Vipassana meditation, which is the kind that I teach, which comes out of Burma and Thailand and Sri Lanka, and then was taught to me by Western teachers. But the purpose of this meditation is to slow down and connect with what’s actually happening. So a good time of day to do that is actually in the morning or at night. Or like you said, in between things, but that might be a little harder because if you haven’t already have a little bit of a practice. just waking up in the morning, having a clear intention, like my intention is self connection, or my intention is this, acceptance. My intention is, you know, bringing kindness to my children today. My intention is whatever, but you set an intention because we’re being present for something. We’re not just being present for present sake. We’re being present because there’s something in our lives that we value and we’re not manifesting that value as much as we want. You know, maybe it is presence or just presence, but presence to our life. But then it’s like, as I want to be present for my life. So it’s first connecting with an intention. It’s a really important part of the meditation. And then just being present with just the breath in bed, it could be in bed, no one needs to know.

You could take three minutes of just breathing in bed and feeling your back, your side layer, like feeling your side breathe, feeling your belly breathe, just being present with it. And then you’re off. And you could do the same thing when you get home in the evening before bed. And that’s kind of pleasurable, like laying in bed, setting an intention and being present with the breath could be pleasurable. I think it’s important that the meditation is you want to do it because you like it. Having another thing that we don’t like, but we think that we should be doing is not going to work for those of us that are so busy with in modernity. So we’re actually moving right now, but like I meditate lying down with my legs up a chair with a heating pad underneath my back. So my, I’m, you know, I’m 48. Like I have a little bit of back pain. So I have a, a really great, that’s called a bio mat. I have a really great mat that I lay on. I put my legs up the chair and I do my meditation of the morning that way because it’s pleasurable. Other people I know meditate in the bathtub.

Leyla Seka (24:48.274)

I used to meditate on the bus. I used take the bus to work. And so I used to listen to music. And it was a big sacrifice for me not to listen to music and listen to Headspace. I remember fighting with Aaron about that for at least two months. But then that’s how it started. now I kind of do it everywhere. Wherever I do it, I’m less the sit down for two hours and meditate unless I’m on retreat with Aaron and much more the catch three minutes here, waiting at the dentist office, just stop and do like a full breathing exercise until they call my name and don’t like interact with anyone. Like, I’ve definitely incorporated it. I’m not, my sister sits down and meditates for 45 minutes every day on a tear, has a set up, same place every day. 

Ruthie Miller (25:36.942)

So you talk about doing a breathing exercise. How do you learn that? Is that you said, I think you said you taught yourself the particular one that you do, but is that something you can learn from Headspace or Calm or a teacher or what?

Leyla Seka (25:49.424)

Yeah, I mean, I learned it from Aaron. I mean, yeah, I mean, look, Aaron, you should probably answer this more than me.

Erin Selover (26:16.638)

Insight Meditation is what I teach. what I’m speaking to. So that’s what I can talk about. And then also, you can reach out to a teacher, but that feels, you know, for a beginner, that’s, that’s a little bit. That’s next level. Yeah. So I think the apps are a good place to start. You know, when I started, there weren’t apps. So, you know, I think, you’re actually a good one to talk about how to get started in this in modernity.

Ruthie Miller (26:44.526)

But by breathing exercise. You just mean like a breathing pattern that you do repeatedly.

Leyla Seka (26:49.318)

Yes. I mean, yeah, every meditation is different. And look, I mean, you can go on YouTube and get great meditations and like, and Dharma Seed, another one Erin just mentioned. Look, I mean, I started with Aaron because I was very skeptical, right? So I needed someone to like talk me into it. And I’m dyslexic. I learn better with a human, right? Like I just learned better with someone and that’s sort of the way I do it. But I do think as far as the breathing exercises, I mean, meditation begins with a body scan. Like the first thing you do is start at the top of your head and try to feel your body all the way down to your toes, which was a real trip for me. Cause I thought you were gonna like get into like, na na na na, trying to get in my head. And it was all like, you feel your shoulders? And I’m like, they’re really tight. Like, yes, okay. You know, but like, so it meditates, that’s where I’m in on the mind body thing. So for me, like the breathing exercise came from years of trying to, and I will say I tried to meditate for years. Because what happens, what happens is that you, you learn from teachers and I could lead us in like a three minute meditation right now, but you learn from teachers, but you learn from teachers. And then eventually the practice becomes your own and you come up with your own, just like anything creative, know, writing anything. Meditation is a very creative process. It’s about self connection with yourself. And it’s a process of like, we’re, we’re present with the body or present with the breath or present with the sensations of the feet on the ground. It’s to create space between the part of you that can be aware and your thoughts, your emotions, your body sensations. Like we aren’t our thoughts and we aren’t our emotions. It turns out they come and they go. They are arising and they’re passing away.

So we actually, it’s a mystery, you know, it’s mysterious, but it’s, it’s, it’s such a creative process to be able to cultivate the part of ourselves that can just be aware of this and then have so much more choice. When we’re aware of something that we can choose, am I going to go with this thing or am I not going to go with this thing? But first we need to cultivate the space between the stimulus and the response. And so that’s what the mindfulness of breathing or mindfulness of feeling your feet on the ground when you walk, or it’s not so that you have a great breathing. It’s to really create the space that you have more choice in your life to live aligned with your values. And to- love that, Andrew. I like that a little better. Leila says, I tried for years. And what I hear is, I tried for years and failed. And I’m like, wait, I don’t want to do anything if I’m going to fail.

Ruthie Miller (29:25.964)

I like that a little better. Leyla says, I tried for years, and what I hear is, I tried for years and failed. And I’m like, wait, I don’t want to do anything if I’m gonna fail. And then Erin starts talking and she’s like, no, no, it’s just making a creative space, you can’t fail. So I’m like, okay, I, I, I you’re saying funny for the first.

Leyla Seka (29:41.65)

You can’t fail. But you have these ideas. I had this idea, like Buddha on the lotus. I’m supposed to be, and that’s what I realized. It’s not that at all. And I’m not religious. This for me is absolutely a philosophy with which to live life. And I have been happier since I adopted it. And like when I feel, I have wild anxiety, when I feel it raging up, I do my breathing. Not forever, but for a minute. And often that’s all I need. Often all I need is just a minute to like before whatever the next thing is. And I did it obviously there, right? Normally I do it and no one even knows I’m doing it, right? And mine won’t work for you, maybe will, who knows? But like that was all born from hours of breathing and just trying to like think about breathing, right? Which seemed crazy to me at the time.

Erin Selover (30:44.352)

Because you start to see when you create the space between your, like the part of you that can observe and what’s emerging thoughts, emotions, body sensations, then you start to see patterns. And when you see those patterns, then you’ll start to interrupt those patterns. So what Leyla is speaking to is after years of cultivating that presence, then Leyla could just see one day, my gosh, I hold my breathing when I’m upset. And then Layla’s natural intelligence, like we’re, we all have natural intuitive intelligence. So Layla’s natural intelligence then is like, okay, let me pause and try something different because this is making it worse. And that can also be with emotions. Like we can notice someone, our partner says something and we go immediately to anger. And then they go to a collapse. And then we go to more anger and they go to more collapse and all of a sudden the communications break down. And so then we can see like, okay, I’m seeing that anger arise in me, like in my body. And it’s like, okay, am I gonna choose the anger or am I gonna make a joke? Okay, I’ll try the joke because it interrupts the pattern. And then you just see what happens. It’s like any creative adventure, you know, and it’s just really personal because it’s about us.

Ruthie Miller (32:13.878)

I like thinking about it like it’s a creative thing, because I’m just a creative person. So that really resonates with me. I have a question, and it’s probably something I should have asked earlier. But you talk about being a Dharma teacher. And I’ve heard the word Dharma before, and I know it’s of similar, adjacent to karma. But what exactly is Dharma, and how is it something that you teach?

Erin Selover (32:40.05)

The Dharma is the, it refers to several different things. First of all, the Dharma, it comes from the language of Pali, which is the language that the Buddhist teachings were recorded in, in Burma, Thailand, Sri Lanka. And what it means is twofold. One, it means the teachings of the Buddha. So it’s just the body of teachings that come out of Burmese, Thailand and Sri Lanka and other places, but the ones that I’m teaching are from there. And then it also is referring to just the way things are. So just how things are like right now, we’re connecting, having a conversation about the Dharma. You’re in Texas, Leila’s in Berkeley, just it just referring to how things are. It’s almost like if you’ve ever heard of the Tao. Have you ever heard of the Tao? Sure. Yeah, so that’s the same. The Tao is the same as Dharma. Very similar. It’s not the exact same, but it’s very similar. Just you’re aligning with the way that life functions.

And particularly the teachings of the Buddha. the particular teachings that the Dharma is referring to, like in the heart essence of it, is that when we cling, like when we hold on to any experience, we suffer And what it says is that, that suffering in general is a part of life. Like we lose things that we love, or, you know, just suffering happens, but we create more suffering when we cling. We call it the second arrow. So when we cling or push and pull on experience, it creates more suffering and that it’s possible to create less suffering by not clinging as much.

But it’s a gradual path. That’s where part of the reason why I’m happy to be here with Leyla because Leyla is a really beautiful example of someone who is, it’s been a very gradual path. Like it’s just applying, like learning something and applying it very gradually, seeing if it’s true, integrating it in their life. And over time it’s, it’s created significant changes and it’s all coming from this principle of, I mean, it’s normal to have pain. It’s normal to have suffering. That is a totally normal part of life. Modernity often teaches us if there’s suffering or if there’s pain, we’ve done something wrong. It’s our fault. And what this is, what this teaching is saying is no, there’s no blame. There’s not actually blame that isn’t aligned with the truth. Suffering happens, pain happens. Where our agency is, where our influences is how we relate and respond to the suffering. And it’s possible to have what Resna Mennequin calls like clean pain. Like pain where we feel it, but we don’t create more. Like here’s a good example. So I used to wake up every morning, I mean for I think most of my adult life until actually very recently and pretty much kick myself around for whatever happened the day before for a little bit.

Leyla Seka (35:52.786)

Like, here’s a good example. So I used to wake up every morning, I mean, for I think most of my adult life until actually very recently and pretty much kick myself around for whatever happened the day before for a little bit. Like, lay in bed, I shouldn’t have eaten that. Shouldn’t have smoked that. Shouldn’t have drank that. Shouldn’t have done that. Shouldn’t have said that. Shouldn’t have cussed that much. Shouldn’t have, what I should. So basically sat in bed and kicked myself in the head for three to five minutes before I got out of bed and started the day. And I thought that was normal. I thought that was kind of what everyone did, right? Like run back all the shit you did wrong so you can do better was sort of my thesis. But it wasn’t until like eight years into working with Erin and thinking about this and trying to figure this out that I sort of realized I was doing that and tried to change it. And changing it has made me a lot easier on myself. And when I start doing it, if I wake up in the morning, I’m like, why did I that cake? Right? It’s a lot about food with me. I’m not gonna lie to you. But like, you know, why did I do that? Why did I eat that? Instead of going down the long list of all the other things I did that weren’t good, I will be like, don’t. You ate a piece of cake. It’s not the end of the world. Get over it.

Ruthie Miller (37:03.992)

So it took you eight years to get to that point though.

Leyla Seka (37:07.014)

But I’m a very complex, messed up person, Ruthie Miller. Not everyone is gonna have this much trouble. I mean, I’m a mess. 

Ruthie Miller (37:14.246)

I kick myself too, for sure. and I mean, it’s easy to be like, well, you just need to tell yourself, don’t kick yourself. And I get that. And I do try to do that for sure. And I’m getting better at it. But if there was like, if I can download Headspace and start getting in touch with that kind of stuff and then kick myself less, I am very open to that possibility.

Erin Selover (37:34.124)

And Ruthie, that, particularly for that pattern, I want to tell you and the listeners, that’s where I would start with the loving kindness and the compassion meditations. Because if you’re just focusing on breathing and that pattern is self judgment, then the antidote to the self judgment is the kindness. And we actually can coach ourselves in the kindness. So it’s wishing ourself well or when those patterns come, we intend kindness. Like one of my teachers tells a story, she was actually practicing on a really long retreat, like a month or so long retreat. And she tells a story of just intending kindness for like every day for the retreat, weeks and weeks and weeks, she was just intending kindness and she didn’t feel it. And then at some point, she dropped a mug and the mug shattered and normally she would beat herself up when that would happen, she knew, and she was like, it’s okay, it’s just a mug. And it was this huge opening in her life. A revelation. It was a revelation and it spontaneously happened. So we’re training because if you have a sense that being more compassionate and loving to yourself would serve you and your family, then even if you don’t feel it, it’s every day intending it, every day intending it, every day intending it, every day intending it. And then in a moment, it’s just the nature. I mean, I’ve seen it so many times. I could tell you so many stories. I could tell you so many stories. We’re just intending it, intending it, intending it, and eventually something. And it’s not, it’s because we’re not talking about the kind of change. It’s not quick change. We’re talking about like deep lasting change. So it can take years to have that kind of deep lasting change, but it’s the kind of change that’s going to stick with you, you know, and that the kind of change that you’re going to really transmit to your children, your grandchildren, you know, the people that you work with, because it’s really, you’re, changing on a really, really deep level. A fundamental way of relating to yourself and others. And we have to start somewhere, right? Right. So, and I think one reason that we started this entire podcast is because we were working so hard for so long and the last person we take care of is ourselves. And I think the idea that has come through all of these episodes is that we need to do a better job of taking care of ourselves in every way. And this just kind of reinforces that even if it’s just taking a couple minutes.

Ruthie Miller (40:03.936)

And we have to start somewhere, right? So, and I think one reason that we started this entire podcast is because we were working so hard for so long and the last person we take care of is ourselves. And I think the idea that has come through all of these episodes is that we need to do a better job of taking care of ourselves in every way. And this just kind of reinforces that even if it’s just taking a couple of minutes for yourself every morning or every evening, it’s very important, not just for specific health problems, but also for your mental health too. 

Erin Selover (40:29.892)

Yeah, and I think other, I know friends who have done it, like when the kids are sleeping in the car, they’ll do, just finding those moments, and I do think an app can be really helpful, but I would probably start for most of us with the loving kindness practices, with the loving kindness, with the self-compassion practices.

Erin Selover (41:00.072)

Because we need it and we can often think like that isn’t the real thing. no, the real thing is this other thing. And I would, I would really challenge those views. From my experience, I’ve been teaching this now for a long time and the self-compassion, the tenderness, the loving kindness is, it’s very powerful, very powerful practice for us. 

Ruthie Miller (41:21.902)

That’s great.

Leyla Seka (41:24.242)

I was shocked by that. I was like, this isn’t about me. This is about everyone else. Teach me how to deal with them. She’s like, wait, maybe, maybe it’s a little bit about you too. One thing you mentioned, Erin, and then we probably have to start getting ready for a wrap up is you brought up retreats. So that is the thing. you know, I was telling Ruthie, I went on silent retreat with you last year. And she was like, looking at me like, how did you go on silent retreat? Which so many people ask me that question. I continue to find that entertaining. I’m like, meet Erin. This is how I went on silent retreat. But can you talk a little bit about retreats and what they are and how people should or shouldn’t think about them? I obviously, know, silent retreats probably maybe not the way you run. It took me 10 years to do it. And Erin was trying to get me to do it for at least six of those 10. So I definitely was not. I was like, whoa, I don’t know about not talking.

Erin Selover (41:55.234)

You also had young kids. You had young kids. So it wasn’t really practical, but yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I think, I want to frame it. I want to frame even the three minutes as taking a retreat. Like if you decide to set an intention and take three minutes, it’s retreating. It’s taking a moment that’s like really about yourself and about connection with yourself, which eventually then leads to connection with others, but it’s first focusing on yourself and then, you know, for some people doing like a half day, like spending a half day doing that or a full day. Everyone turns in their cell phones, we, and we just, but feed you really good food. And we just practice like sitting meditation and standing meditation and sitting meditation and standing meditation in a really beautiful environment. And what gets to happen is like the, all that quieting, like you talked to Ruthie, like all those things. mean, first they’re like super loud, but often what happens is that just starts to settle as the days go on. And we connect with part of ourselves that we don’t often have access to in the busyness of our lives and parts of ourselves that are really deeply nourishing and regenerative. so oftentimes, and I think Leyla had this experience, like we have experiences that are experiences we cherish for a lifetime. And then those experiences then help us. That’s then what we’re integrating into our life over the next year or two years or six months until we set a retreat practice again. So you’re having like an immersive experience and and from that immersive experience often you get a sense of what is the next thing to to support in your own unfolding and what you value in your life and then you’re integrating it with your practice throughout the year and that could be again like the meditation you do need to create this space but it could be writing practice it could be meditative writing it could be contemplative prayer there’s so many ways to connect so I really want to just encourage people to connect in the way that makes sense for you and insight meditation is one option but it’s not the only option. Yeah. That sounds lovely actually but it’s hard you know like the whole reason I need this is because you know I have so much going on and the whole reason I can’t do it is because I have so much going on you know so half day maybe but Layla does these big long ones and I’m like how do you block off your calendar for that?

Ruthie Miller (44:58.222)

It sounds lovely, actually. But it’s hard, you know, like the whole reason I need this is because, you know, I have so much going on and the whole reason I can’t do it is because I have so much going on. So half day maybe. But Leyla does these big long ones and I’m like, how do you block off your calendar for those? I have so much to watch.

Leyla Seka (45:15.09)

My kids are a lot older than your kids. My kids are a lot older than your kids. But I will say that the retreat, that was wild. And if you ever find yourself feeling compelled to do something like that, I would say do it, right? I really thought I wasn’t able to do it. You’re not allowed to make eye contact. You’re not allowed to talk. I mean, you have to eat with a whole bunch of people and not look at them like time. was initially, I was like, this is the most awkward shit I’ve ever done in my life. I don’t think I can do it. But then by like the middle of the second day I was like this is the best thing that’s ever happened. All the social normalities. All the like hey! Oh yeah! 

Ruthie Miller (45:48.402)

Yeah, part of that sounds so enticing. Like I can just sit there and not have to talk to anybody. Like that kind of sounds lovely.

Erin Selover (45:54.402)

Yeah, it was and be fed well and be in nature and just but like I really reiterate that Leyla if if someone’s drawn to sit silent retreat I really really encourage to do it. Yeah, because it’s great, definitely. 

Ruthie Miller (46:07.32)

That sounds great. Well, that’s about all the time we have today. That’s a great place to end, I think, because we can put more information about Silent Retreats and Erin on our website at sideprojecthq.com. And we will also link to Erin’s website, which I believe is erinselover.com. Erin, thank you so much for joining us. This was a great conversation and I really, honestly, I’m gonna take a lot of this to heart and I make a promise to you and anybody who happens to be listening that I am gonna get on board here.