Side Project Podcast 4: Sleep with Khaliah Guillory

Leyla Seka (04:04.889)

So why does it get so hard to sleep as we’re getting older?

Ruthie Miller (04:10.077)

Yes, now that we’re middle-agey, I feel like we’re having more trouble sleeping.

Khaliah O. Guillory (04:11.751)

This middle-agey thing, I call it, we’re at this big age now. There’s a lot of things that are happening with our bodies. 40 hits a little different than 20 did, you know? So if you probably remember, in our 20s, we can go out on a Thursday night for happy hour and stay out through dinner and wind up at a lounge or go hang out. And you’re up till one o’clock in the morning and then you go to sleep and then you’re at work at 7 a.m., 8 a.m. and you’re ready, you’re productive. You’re working on all engines.

That’s not the case anymore. Those things are long gone.

Ruthie Miller (04:44.477)

Absolutely. Those days are gone.

Khaliah O. Guillory (04:51.182)

One of the biggest things that I’ve seen in my firm, my consulting work that I do is hormonal changes. I think, personally, we need to talk more about menopause, perimenopause, all the pauses. We don’t talk about it enough. I am perimenopause myself. I was diagnosed last year at the tender age of 44. And I tell you, this has been a journey for me. And one of the biggest indications that something was going on with me, was my sleep was impacted. I was having insomnia. I was waking up at three, four o’clock in the morning, two or three times a week. And I was like, what is going on? I’m kicking the covers off multiple times throughout the night. Like, what is happening to my body? 

And as I started to do more research, because they don’t teach you these things whenever you’re getting your certifications to become a sleep coach. You’re not talking about the hormonal changes. So what happens, especially for women, when we’re going through this change, there’s a fluctuation of estrogen and our progesterone levels, even our testosterone. And this even impacts men. So men also, their testosterone levels decline and that can affect their sleep quality, as well as their energy levels. So hormonal changes, there’s increased stress, right? 

We’re in this big age. I tell my dad sometimes, like, I feel like he’s a kid and I’m the adult, I’m having to parent him sometimes. So we’ve got these aging parents, we have career, we have families, we have our own families and financial pressures. We’re in a political landscape is, regardless of what side of the fence you’re on, it’s different for everybody. So there’s so much that’s going on right now when we have this increased stress and there’s more responsibility and our brains are just in all the time go mode. It doesn’t really truly get a chance just to unwind and shut down. Our circadian rhythms are all off because your circadian rhythm is, if I could get nerdy for a second.

Ruthie Miller (06:48.029)

Bring it on. We love a little bit of nerdery.

Khaliah O. Guillory (06:50.798)

Perf, perf. The circadian rhythm is just another way of saying this is your internal master clock, right? This is your body’s alarm clock. So you notice like a lot of people who wake up at this, if they go to bed at the same time, they wake up around the same time every day. A lot of folks who subscribe to this, they do not need alarm clocks because they’re just, their body is just running on a hundred percent.

Whenever we go into our big age that some of us are in, that starts to change. So we’ll notice that our clock is shifting. So we’ll get up a little earlier or we’re going to bed a little earlier. I found myself in the bed at 9:15 the other night and I was like, wow.

Leyla Seka (07:29.753)

I’m never not in bed at 8.30. I’m not kidding, forget it.

Ruthie Miller (07:30.717)

I love it.

Khaliah O. Guillory (07:33.634)

I love it because now because I’ve shifted now I’m naturally getting up around six, six thirty if I didn’t have insomnia the night before. And so like that’s just what’s happening. And so, you know, a lot of us, we notice these normal shifts of the ebbs and flow of our sleep quality as well as like, Why am I up so early? And why am I going to bed earlier? 

That’s nothing that we did. It’s just natural. It just comes naturally with age progression. So what we eat, what we put in our body, that also plays a role in the aches and pains that we might have when we’re going to bed. And then I’m sure we’ll talk a little bit more about sleep apnea and sleep disorders. Women are more prone to having sleep disorders than men. We also get less sleep scientifically, proving that we get less sleep than men.

But we believe that, we’re boss babes. We can kill it in the boardroom. We can help the kids with homework and we can be present on date night and we can cook dinner and we can do all this on four hours of sleep at this big age. And we also think we can make up for it with a cup of coffee. Nope, it’s not the elixir. That is not a cheat code. The cheat code is just really truly being intentional about our sleep hygiene. That’s it.

Ruthie Miller (08:47.953)

Well, so I know you’re gonna give us some tips on how we can sleep better or what we, need to do with our routine before we go to sleep. But while we’re talking about those episodes, when we wake up in the middle of the night, what are we supposed to do? Are we supposed to get up and read a book or walk around the house for a minute? Or are we supposed to just lie there in bed and try to sleep, which is what I normally do. But what’s the best thing to do in that situation?

Khaliah O. Guillory (09:16.206)

The best thing to do is get up and leave the room. Just get out of there because what happens and Ruthie you mentioned this. So let me ask you when you’re laying there, you like clock watching or are like, oh man, now I only have four hours to sleep. Oh man, only have 30 more minutes and then I might as well just get up and now you aggravated.

Ruthie Miller (09:35.095)

I’m like, I’m you know, I look at the clock every once in a while, but mostly I’m just keeping my eyes clamped shut, you know going like this, please for the love of God, please fall asleep. Please fall asleep. Am I asleep now? Am I tired now? How am I feeling now? And it’s like the anxiety is running through my head and like I should probably just get up and do something, but I’m still under the impression that it is possible that I could fall asleep.

Khaliah O. Guillory (09:47.104)

I mean, you could, but it’s highly unlikely. And here’s the reason why, because as you’re going through this in your head, your stress level is going up. That means your cortisol levels are going up and your cortisol is killing your sleep. And so what happens is that now you’re like in this flight of flight mode when it relates to your relationship with sleep. And also the brain is a very smart thing, right? It is this matter that understands she’s up.

And we’re in the bedroom, so we’re just going to be up. And you don’t want your brain to think it’s dark outside and we’re supposed to be up. Oftentimes we saw an influx of COVID insomnia. It was COVID-induced insomnia because people are now using their bedrooms as where you do your activities. It was the lunchroom for the kids. It was the homework spot for the kids. We are now working in our bedrooms. Like everything that’s happened in your bedroom, when really the only thing you should be doing in your bedroom is sleeping, fun time, and that’s it. So if you’re not doing that, that’s why you, go ahead.

Leyla Seka (11:01.956)

I mean, I couldn’t agree with you more. Like, we don’t have a, my husband won’t let us have a TV in the bedroom. We don’t have electronics in the bedroom. Like, we’re pretty hardcore on that stuff. But one thing I can’t, like, I can’t nap. And I was thinking about it, I was on a walk this morning, I was thinking, I’m gonna talk to you, and I was like, why can’t I nap? And I think I’ve come up with the fact thatnI can’t nap because it feels a little too vulnerable for some reason to nap.

I’m wondering if it’s because I’m a woman or because of whatever, but like for some reason, like I see people falling asleep on the train and like on the bus and I’m like, I just don’t feel that comfortable doing that. But I know napping is key. Like how do I teach myself how to nap? What do I do here?

Khaliah O. Guillory (11:51.886)

Now, if I could, can I, I want to add one more thing to the sleep piece or waking up in the middle of the night to get out of that room and then can I come right back to the nap? Okay. So what I want to say is like, yes, leave the bedroom, but you’ve gotta be very intentional about what you do when you wake up in the middle of the night. So go and read a book, an actual book, and make sure you don’t have a bright light on. Or if you’re like me, I will do segmented sleep. So segmented sleep is two parts of sleep. So what usually happens, they did this in like the industrial revolutionary days. And so this isn’t something that’s new to mankind. We just kind of slipped away from it. So what I did last night, I had insomnia or the night before last I had insomnia. And so I woke up about two o’clock, or it was like one o’clock. So I was like, all right, let me get out of here. Got out of the bedroom, went into my office, laid on a couch. I had my humidifier on and then I started to play my soundscapes. And then after the soundscapes were done, I played, YouTube is like my best friend in the middle of the night. And so I just punched in I am affirmations. And then I listened to some: I am powerful. I am going to sleep tonight. Like I did all these things. And then I wrapped it up with a sleep one, so like the ocean waves and just white noise. And then 45 minutes later, I started to feel a little sleepy, went back into the bedroom. I was out for another four hours. So segmented sleep is when you basically sleep in two segments. So if you’re someone that needs eight hours, and I say this, what you need.

I didn’t say the CDC said you need to get eight hours of sleep. It’s based on what your body needs. Sleep is not cookie cutter; it’s based on what you feel when you wake up feeling restored and refreshed. For some people it’s six hours. For some people it’s eight. For me, eight is my number. So I got my four hours. I was four hours into my sleep when I woke up. And then when I went back to bed around two, three o’clock. I was out for another four hours, so I woke up at 7, 7:15, refreshed, restored, not like I missed a beat. So, you know, I wanted to share that just because I know there’s a lot of people who are struggling with insomnia. Just breaking up your sleep and leaving the room, that can make a world of a difference.

Ruthie Miller (14:05.085)

That’s good to know. I’m definitely going to try that.

Khaliah O. Guillory (14:08.782)

Try it. Yeah. And or maybe journaling. Like if you’re worried or if you, if your mind can’t slow down, journal before you go to bed. If you can’t, you want to do a quick brain dump journal before bed. And then if you woke up in the middle of the night, go back to your job and say, okay, what else do I need to like get out of my brain so I can go back to sleep? Okay. So back to later. Okay. Naps. Yes. Now here’s the thing about napping. Let me, let me,

Ruthie Miller (14:27.229)

Perfect.

Khaliah O. Guillory (14:35.534)

I’m going to keep getting nerdy. NASA did a study on sleepy military pilots and astronauts and found that a 26 minute nap improved their productivity up to 34% and alertness by 54%.

You’re talking a 26-minute nap. Now, let me, let me give you guys a little background. I’ve been an avid napper in my entire life. I was a kid in kindergarten when the teacher said, go and get your red and blue mat. I got my mat. I was in my spot and I was out. She did not have to fight with me. And I just continued to nap throughout high school. I played division one basketball. And that’s really where I learned the art of a power nap. However, I will say this. Some people just aren’t set up to nap.

It’s DNA, right? DNA also sometimes whenever we have these sleep things, if you are, if you’re an early bird or you are a night owl, one of your parents was one of the two. So we inherited some of these, these sleep behaviors that we got. It’s up to us to reverse engineer that. 

But if you’re saying, well, I feel guilty about napping, we have to reverse engineer our approach to that and give ourselves permission to rest. I remember when I first got into corporate America, I still was taking naps. I was taking them in my car and I used conference rooms. I was taking them anywhere I could get them. And, you know, the biggest reality for me was that people were like, man, you always sleeping. You’re just lazy. Why are you so lazy? I didn’t have the research then to share that I do now. I was like, no, I actually am very productive because my productivity goes up when I wake up from my nap. And I think especially for women, we feel guilty when we feel like there’s so much going on. I’ve got a laundry list to the moon that I have to do. I don’t have time to nap. But the reality of it is, is that we do. We can simply just give ourselves permission to nap or we can give ourselves permission to rest.

Khaliah O. Guillory (16:32.814)

See those are two different things, right? So we take off the smart watch, anything that buzzes or beeps, take that off for five, 10 minutes and just sit and be still.

Like if you want to listen to music, if you want to read a book, if you just want to lay down with your eyes closed, do something that pours back into yourself. And though you might not get the up to 34% of productivity as you would get with the actual nap, but you’re still going to get some restoration just by being quiet and being still and allowing your brain just to rest.

Ruthie Miller (17:04.699)

I love that you just gave us permission. I mean, I think that’s it. I always feel stressed out and hectic and like I need to be doing one more thing and filling every waking minute with something on my to-do list or spending more time with my kids or making better food or going to the grocery or what have you. A good five to 10 minutes, even if it’s just a rest where I’m sitting in my bed looking at a book or something, I think that would be super helpful.

Khaliah O. Guillory (17:34.551)

Absolutely.

Leyla Seka (17:36.612)

Wait, okay, so with all of that, and I know you said it’s different for everyone, what is like optimal nap length? Like if I were gonna try to get nap hygiene, right? Because everyone does say like sleep more, sleep more, sleep more. know, everyone’s like lift weights, eat protein and sleep more. Like all anyone ever tells me to do, constantly. I’m like, okay, I don’t know, I eat much more protein. I’m like I’ve never eaten so much meat in my life, but if we were going to try to get some kind of nap regimen or something, is there a best time of day? And is there an optimal length? Or is there anything like that to try to aspire toward or think through?

Khaliah O. Guillory (18:16.334)

Absolutely. So one thing I’ll add to the eating the protein and getting more sleep is cutting out sugar too. That has been a difference maker for me by far. And so what I would say is the optimum time duration for your nap, no more than 30 minutes.

And the reason why I say that, it is scientifically proven that most people, in fact I have had some clients that say, my gosh, I tried to nap and it was the most horrible thing that I could have ever done that day. I was like, tell me more. What happened? It’s supposed to help you relax. And so the first question is, well, how long did you nap for? I think it was like an hour and 45 minutes. Whoa, you didn’t nap, you slept.

You went night night. And so what happens is whenever you nap longer than 30, really 45 minutes, you are really pushing it because now you’re about to go into REM sleep, which is rapid eye movement. And when you’re going into REM sleep, that means your body is completely paralyzed. It is in, you’re getting some really good sleep. And so if you wake up out of that REM sleep, you feel groggy. It’s called sleep inertia. So you didn’t finish that REM cycle as you should have, cause there was phases throughout.

Right. We got light sleep. We’ve got deep sleep. We’re going in a room. Like there’s a whole science to this. So if you interrupt that cycle and you wake up before you were supposed to, you’re going to wake up groggy and you’re going to be moody and you’re not going to think this was the best idea you could ever gotten. And so, you know, I often encourage folks try it and set an alarm clock. Right. And so set our alarm clock. My naps are on my calendar is blocked off and it also should be eight hours from your wake time. So when you wake up,

Eight hours from there, that, that, that 60 minute window is your nap time. If for me, my schedule, I’m up around 6, 6:30, so I feel really good when I’m taking my nap at three o’clock. That might give or take 30 minutes or so, but if it gets to where something happened and I wasn’t able to get my nap around that time, if I’m going to get a nap in, it has to be by five o’clock. Cause if I take it later than five o’clock, now it’s going to interrupt my night sleep.

Ruthie Miller (20:32.871)

That makes sense. So last summer when we were traveling we were abroad and we stayed at a bunch of different hotels and this was in Europe and what I loved is that my husband and I get a king bed, and every single one of those beds had two separate duvets. And at first I thought this is so weird, but by the end of the trip I was totally on board. He had his, I have mine. I mean it’s one bed, but he has his duvet over here and I have my duvet over here. So we’re not fighting for it. I mean, it seemed like a great solution. Have you seen that?

Khaliah O. Guillory (21:06.391)

Yep.

Leyla Seka (21:11.255)

This is what I do, by the way. is how I, this is how we like, and we both have never slept better, FYI. Like we started this about three months ago, game changer. 

Khaliah O. Guillory (21:25.304)

Listen, I echo what you’re saying. I come from the school of thought, if it works for you and it works for your household, do it. You know, because the reality of it is, is that everybody has different sleep cycles and sleep patterns and some people wake up a little earlier and some people wake up later. Some people are snorers. Some people have sleep apnea. Some people run hot. Some people run cold. So if I’m constantly, if I’m going through perimenopause and menopause and I’m constantly kicking the covers off, I’m now interrupting my partner’s sleep. But if I have my own duvet, my own little sheet, then kicking that off is not gonna interrupt them. It’s gonna fall right by next to me on my side. 

And I think we’re gonna talk about sleep divorce. You know, that, that kind of, I think people start with the duvets and they realize like, huh, you like it at 73 degrees at night in the room where we’re sleeping. I’m more of a 66 degree gal. So, you know, maybe we should experiment and maybe you sleep over here and I’m gonna sleep over there. 

I think that sleep divorces should be the last course of action because you know, there’s just, it’s just a level of intimacy and connection that happens when you’re sleeping with your partner. However, there’s also resentment and frustration that happens whenever you’re constantly waking up cranky because your partner interrupted your sleep.

Leyla Seka (22:41.845)

Okay, so aside from like the two twin duvets which I have done and I sleep with like a white noise machine and like all that stuff for example, my husband’s very light sleeper, what are other sort of tactics or things to think about before a sleep divorce?

Khaliah O. Guillory (22:57.614)

Yeah, you know, I think it starts with communication, you know, talking about it. Because I think oftentimes we get these couples and they’re like, he snores or she snores, or she’s always running hot and she’s making me hot. But they’re not saying it to each other. They’re saying it to like everybody else but the people you’re sleeping with.

Ruthie Miller (23:16.295)

It sounds like you’re a sleep therapist almost.

Khaliah O. Guillory (23:20.014)

Yeah, I think my consultations have definitely turned into a little bit of sleep therapy. And you know, so one of the things that the first thing we do is like, hey, have you talked to your mate about the things that are driving you bonkers at night about the sleep? That’s first and foremost. The second piece of it is what do you think will work? You know, we tried the white noise machine. Have we tried to separate the days? I have a cold blanket, so it’s always cold. It is the best thing my partner could have ever gotten me because she was tired of me running hot and she felt like I was a heater. She was sleeping next to a heater. So I literally have this cold blanket. 

Ruthie Miller (24:08.071)

Wait wait, yeah tell me about this cold blanket. Is it like a refrigerated thing or is it just a light blanket or what?

Khaliah O. Guillory (24:15.278)

It’s the strangest thing, Ruthie, because I still haven’t figured out how does it stay cold and cool – but it does. You don’t have to do anything. It’s the fabrics that they use. It’s the technology that they have. But I am always cool when I’m under this blanket. You don’t have to put it in a fridge. You don’t have to put it in a freezer. There’s not an ice pack pocket. There’s nothing. It’s just cool.

Ruthie Miller (24:34.587)

Yeah, that is amazing. I’m definitely looking into that. Okay, this is a topic everybody needs to know about. Electronics in the bedroom, yay or nay? Doom scrolling on my phone right before bed? That’s not a good thing.

Khaliah O. Guillory (25:00.276)

No, absolutely not. You know, there’s this thing called this blue light. And whenever you’re scrolling late at night, it’s going into this going, it’s entering your brain through your eyes and your brain is like, wait a minute. It’s dark outside, but I have this light in my brain. I guess I’m supposed to be up. So it potentially can keep you up. I do know some people whose scrolling lulls them to sleep for some strange reason. But for some people, if you feel like man after I’ve scrolled on wired I’m up because I just went down 20 rabbit holes, scrolling is not for you. If you’re not if you’re if you’re scrolling and you’re scrolling you’re scrolling and all of sudden you’re like this and your partner has to like take the phone out of your hand and you’re off to a great sleep and you’re sleeping through the night go for it, but for 99.9 % of the rest of us scrolling is not your best friend we got we could replace that with so many more things.

Leyla Seka (26:08.163)

Well, we should do that. And I also want to hear like, what is the optimal bedroom? Like, you know, aromatherapy, plants, no plants, like, you know, stark, colorful. I’d love any kind of best case. 

Khaliah O. Guillory (26:25.356)

You absolutely want green plants, live green plants. Snake plants are the best. They’re hypoallergenic. And plants that also help clean the air. So while you’re sleeping, if you have a plant that naturally is cleaning the air, that’s always going to be a win-win. 

The temperature in the room. This causes a lot of frustration with a lot of couples. I just, I just got my partner down to 66. We started at 69, and now we’re down to 66, and we’re both happy. Here’s the reality. Your body shouldn’t shiver and sweat when you’re going to sleep or even taking a nap. So 66, 65 to 68, 69 is an optimum temperature because you really want your body, your internal thermometer to really cool down so you can stay in your deep sleep.

The other thing that we should do is make sure it’s dark. You know, we need to invest in some blackout shades or curtains. Do that. Kick the pets out of the bed. I know I always run past that one really fast. Cause I always get some blank stares. I always get a lot of slow blinks. I love Fido too, but Fido gets to kicking, Fido gets to moving, Fido gets to scratching, Fido is waking you up in the middle of the night. Sometimes you can’t get back to sleep. We love Fido, but Fido has a bed for a reason. 

Ruthie Miller (28:14.213)

Okay, one last thing I want to touch on. Can you buy MetaSnooze or is that something that you have to get from a nap bar pop-up?

Khaliah O. Guillory (30:41.23)

So we are in the process right now. And one of the things that we realized is because we upload the software and we utilize the Oculus headsets. My attorneys have, since the Grammys pop up, shared with me that we probably want to get into a relationship with Oculus and just have it automatically uploaded there. So anybody who purchases an Oculus headset has access to it. Right now it’s just exclusive to Nap Bar. So we’re working on that part of it. There’s more to come. We have a lot coming out in the pipeline.

There is an affirmation and guided meditation mixed tape that I’m currently working on right now so that people can really get kind of like the inspiration back here with an actual cassette tape. You know those tapes where you had to listen to everything? Because it really, that was like really the true practice of mindfulness. So more to come on that. But yes, very soon, hopefully, knock on wood, we will have that backed up and everyone will be able to experience the Meta snooze.

Leyla Seka (31:24.29)

Yes!

Ruthie Miller (31:40.657)

Well, we look forward to that. That’s about all the time we have today. If we can send everybody out to go take a quick 26-minute nap. Big thanks to Khaliah Guillory for joining us. Anybody can go to her website at NapBarNow.com and learn more about Nap Bar’s concierge rest services. Khaliah, thank you so much for joining us.

Khaliah O. Guillory (32:05.41)

Thank you guys so much for having me.