Leyla Seka (01:52.978)

So let’s start at beginning. When people think of doulas, they think of people that go into your house and you get into a baby pool and you push a baby out, right? When I first mentioned this idea, my mom was like, I’m not pregnant. My 86 year old mother. I was like, yes, yes, I know. Not that kind of a doula. Kacie, tell us what, what is a death doula? Give us a little bit of background on this.

Kacie Gikonyo (02:15.754)

Absolutely. I love that you brought up birthing doulas because it’s a great way to kind of explain what a death doula does. If you really put thought into what a birthing doula does, they help support the person laboring into the world, but also the loved ones, the family members, the husband, the wife, whoever it is. A death doula does the same thing only on the opposite end of life. So we help people to labor out of this world, while at the same hand supporting the loved ones as well.

Because when somebody is laboring out of this world or making their final transition out, it’s not just an experience for that person. It’s an experience for every single person that’s involved. And being a nurse, I could see that there was just a little bit of a lack there. A lack of additional support that people really, really need to walk through this journey. So that’s kind of what death doulas do. Each death doula is different. Some of us are the same, some of us are distant. Some of us are more grief focused. Some of us are more death focused. I’m a registered nurse. I’ve done this in my nursing career for a really long time. So me, I’m in there. I’m in the nitty gritty, but I help with everything. So my clients usually call me right after they’ve received a terminal diagnosis. Maybe they’re not even at the hospice point yet. The majority of them are still receiving palliative care treatments, but either way, you’ve gotten a horrifying diagnosis.

And a lot of my clients are younger in age. So people think of a death doula, and they automatically think, they must work with old people. Well, old people aren’t the only people who die. People of all ages die. So a lot of my clients are younger. They’re in their 30s, their 40s, their 50s, their 60s. They have a spouse, they have children, they have animals and a house. I mean, there’s just so many things involved. And that’s kind of where I come in. I come in as soon as I can, and right away start trying to lift the burden while also educating. 

Leyla, you mentioned that you’ve been through your dad’s death. And I know that when people go through a death of a loved one for the first time, it’s almost shocking how much you don’t know, right? Like, I mean, there’s so much additional support that you could have there, but you don’t know what you don’t know. So you can’t plan for that if you don’t necessarily know that you’re going to need all this additional support until now you’re in the thick of it. And it’s like, my gosh, like, what do I do here, you know, so that’s kind of what that doula is we’re trying to do. We’re trying to get out there to get out there to get in front of people to help them with end of life planning, to help them with organizing everything to help them to understand their diagnosis and what the future looks like and also to really think about it. I mean, how many times have you thought about what you want the last days of your life to look like? Probably never.

Cause if you haven’t met someone like me, who’s asking you these ridiculous questions, most people aren’t going to think about it, but that’s, that’s what I do. You know, I help people get all of their planning in order as far as your estate planning, your financial planning, your medical power of attorney and your advanced directives, and all of those important things. But once we get all of those boxes checked and those big things out of the way, now I start making you think about the stuff that you never would have thought of before. You know, what type of sounds or music or whatever do you want to hear in your last moments of life? Most people don’t realize that laboring out of life is literally a process. You know, for the majority of us who die a natural death, you don’t die quickly. You know, you don’t fall asleep and then not wake up in the morning. Like that’s not how it’s not that magical. And depending on your disease process, you can be dying for weeks or days.

Leyla Seka (05:50.139)

Long time. Yeah.

Kacie Gikonyo (05:51.276)

Yeah, I mean, it can take a really long time. imagine not only how difficult that is on the person themselves to wake up just a little bit more declined every single day for weeks or days or however long it takes, but also the loved ones to watch this person that you love so much wake up in a more declined condition every single day. And that goes on for so long, you know? So it really takes a toll on everybody if you really don’t have the right type of support there.

Ruthie Miller (06:18.546)

So you handle the person and the family. I really like what you said about you don’t know what you don’t know because I think that’s 100% the case with me. I’ve been very fortunate throughout my life. I have not dealt with death up close almost ever. And so I think that really struck a chord with me. You don’t know what you don’t know. Like when it does come for me and mine, I really am not going to know what to do at all. So I’m glad to know there are people out there who can be walking me through this process.

Leyla Seka (06:47.939)

Yeah, my mom’s still alive, but she’s declining. And I actually hired a doula for her because she wants to talk about death all the time. And I really don’t. Like, my dad just died. We had a rough year. I don’t want to sit around and talk, you know, and she’s in that, she’s a bit dramatic. So she’ll be like, you know, like this kind of drama, drama. She’s Turkish little old lady with like lot of makeup on. It was a little dramatic.

But finally she got sick and she was just like a cold, but when you’re 86 and you get a cold, it’s a little more disastrous than when you’re 50 or 25. And she just wouldn’t stop. And I was going nuts. And I was like, I can’t take it. I just can’t take it anymore. I’m an outsourcer, right? I’m a software executive. So I’m like, how do I get the job done? So I found a death doula who’s lovely, this woman Rita. And she goes and talks to my mom once a month for a couple hours. 

And my father was a lawyer, so her life is organized as far as all the major things, but I think the emotion of death and trying to reconcile the fact that like my dad is gone and she’s clearly next, right? And then in my mind, well, soon as they’re gone, I’m up, right? I mean, maybe not, hopefully not soon, but like the progression of watching that. I think even just understanding that a doula can be a longer term sort of relationship with someone as they’re approaching an end. Maybe even not in hospice, but I mean, do you have patients you’ve been with for a while? Is that like a common thing?

Kacie Gikonyo (08:20.898)

Oh, absolutely. I love that you brought this up because a lot of times when people think of a death doula, they picture us being there just in those last days of life. And absolutely, we’re there for that moment, for sure. But we can be so helpful way beyond, and we don’t work for the medical system, so you don’t have to check any boxes to work with me. We could work together now, you know, If you just have a fear of death or you don’t understand end-of-life planning. I mean I have people work with me from all walks of life that aren’t even necessarily close. Death Doulas do legacy projects with people. A legacy project is, they say that each person dies two deaths: once when you physically die and then once again when you’re spoken of for the last time. So if you know that you’re eventually gonna die, which we all are, why not plan to leave behind some sort of tangible legacy for your loved ones? So they’re always looking at your pictures or seeing this or your art or talking about you, whatever it is.

And so I’ve had people that hire me, you know, they’re just in their sixties. They’re not dying. You know, they just know like, Hey, I’m in my sixties. I’ve got all these grandkids and these kids and I’d love to work on something to have to leave behind for them. So it’s just great that you brought that up that like a doctor who can work with anybody at any time in their life. I also wanted to mention, I love that, you know, it’s totally normal for you in your grief journey to not be ready to have these conversations with your mom. So I don’t want you to feel like you’re lacking or anything because you don’t want to be there to have these conversations. You just lost your dad, you know, and the thought of maybe losing your mom too, like that’s a lot. But I absolutely love that instead of just avoiding it, you were like, I got to find her someone to talk to. That’s perfect. That’s the best thing to do. Because to be honest, nobody wants to have these conversations with their family, regardless of whether or not you just lost a loved one. Nobody wants to sit down and talk with their mom about when she’s going to die. That’s really, really hard.

And so that’s part of what a death doula is. I always say we are the pillar of support for everyone because mom has all kinds of thoughts and all kinds of questions. And you maybe have all kinds of thoughts and all kinds of questions, but maybe you guys don’t want to bring those to each other for whatever reason. It could make somebody cry. There could be heavy emotions.

That’s where we come in. I’m this pillar of support. I’m going to be there. I’m going to be strong for you guys. You can bring me any question in the world or any thoughts or whatever it is. And I’m going to hold space for you and support you through it and provide education if education is needed at that point, you know, whatever it is. So I just, I love that you were like, my mom really needs this and you got her this stuff to do. Like that just makes my heart so happy.

Ruthie Miller (10:54.352)

Okay, so on that note, I’m bringing this up in conversation. So, Leyla lives in California and not to be stereotypical, but California is a lot more forward thinking when it comes to this. Well, I live in Houston, Texas and people here are really hesitant, for the most part, to talk about death. And I think a lot of us, we’re in middle age right now. Maybe our parents are nearing this point, but you know, at least where I sit, it’s not really something that comes up in conversation or that’s easy to talk about, or our parents don’t want to talk about it. Do you have any tips or any ideas? How do we bring this up in conversation?

Kacie Gikonyo (11:34.904)

So definitely there are resources out there available that can kind of help. There’s decks of cards, a couple different kinds. There’s a website called Buried in Work that has, it’s just a huge database of anything you could think of end of life related. You know, there’s paid resources, there’s free stuff, there’s end of life checklists, all kinds of stuff, but they also have a deck of cards on there that can just kind of help ask these questions. Like, hey, have you thought about this or have you thought about that? It can even just spark.

You know, sometimes when we’re sitting with somebody late in life, it’s uncomfortable. We don’t know what to say, you know, so you can just grab this deck of cards and be like, Hey, who is your first girlfriend? You know, like it just gives you these questions you never would have thought of. And then you start learning stuff about them. So there are resources out there at the end of life deck and the death deck or another one. I always say, you know, people will laugh, but I mean, show up to, you know, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter dinner, whatever it is with the family and be like, Hey, I got these cards and I want to ask you guys these questions and see what they say. 

My second thing to say about that is I always tell people to blame death Death Doula Kacie. I am everywhere. I am on every single social media that you can find and I am very forwarded in your face about it. And I tell people we need to change the narrative and we need to be talking about that. So maybe just bring it up. I met this Death Doula or I talked to this Death Doula and she really planted this seed in my brain. And now I feel like I want to talk to you guys about this stuff, you know,

The third thing I want to say is that there’s this narrative that we aren’t supposed to talk about death. Okay. And I started a TikTok two and a half years ago talking about death, and I thought nobody was going to go for this. And I grew immediately because people wanted to hear more. I was teaching them things about death, about end of life, about hospice that nobody had ever heard before. And so then I started an Instagram and a Facebook and LinkedIn and a YouTube. And now I have thousands and thousands, almost a hundred thousand followers across all the platforms now. 

So it’s something that we’re taught. We don’t talk about death. We don’t talk about death, but actually people do. People do want to know. They do want to talk about death. Nobody wants to be unprepared or ill-prepared for this type of situation. So some people will shut you down and it just has to be something that you kind of have to be prepared for, especially an older generation of people. They were very sternly taught that we don’t talk about this stuff. Younger generations are more open to it for sure. But I always say, we’ve got to take the first step. You know, we’ve got to be the one to say, I am willing to talk about death. And I do want to know these things. I don’t want to see, you know, my parents die and have no idea what to do with their things or what if I have to make a really hard decision and I don’t know what decision to make because I never wanted to talk to them about how they feel about these things. 

It’s really hard to have these conversations, but I can tell you firsthand, it’s much harder to not have those conversations, to be in the thick of it and have no idea what you’re supposed to do on top of the grief of now you’re losing your loved one. So that’s my best advice for kind of just opening the door to having these conversations.

Leyla Seka (14:47.045)

Yeah, I remember after my dad died, they planned out the money and everything, but they hadn’t planned what to do with his remains. So I remember this very rainy day in the cemetery, trying to pick out a spot and a placard and writing a really big check because it’s really expensive to be in a cemetery. I had no idea – my parents are immigrants. So my dad’s the first person I’ve buried in America, right? The whole thing was just kind of wild.

So Kacie, just quickly a little bit on you, what is your philosophy on death? The way I look at software, you look at death And then software is not nearly as interesting or hard, candidly. So like, what’s your personal philosophy or how do you think about death? How do you do this job? I mean, that sounds so hard to me. 

Kacie Gikonyo (15:43.8)

So those are two separate questions. How do I do this job? My answer is this is written on my soul. This is what I’m here to do. It’s what I’m meant to do. It’s not hard for me in any way. It’s the easiest thing I’ve ever done in my life. I’m happier than I’ve ever been in my life because now I’m doing what I absolutely know I’m supposed to do. So, you’re really, really good at software. I don’t know anything about software and I don’t want to, you know what I mean? Like it’s just, that’s what you’re good at, you know?

Ruthie Miller (16:07.502)

Hahaha!

Leyla Seka (16:08.677)

It’s not that interesting.

Kacie Gikonyo (16:12.588)

And this is just my thing. I know I’m supposed to be doing it. Ever since I started doing it, everything falls into place perfectly. And that’s how I know. I’ve always been kind of battling upstream, you know, without a paddle or whatever, just like fighting, fighting, fighting. And once I finally stepped into my calling or doing whatever I’m supposed to do, I just, it’s, know this is exactly where I’m supposed to be. 

Ruthie Miller (16:35.826)

That’s very cool.

Kacie Gikonyo (16:38.946)

People are always like, how do you do this? And you’re so amazing. And that’s just wild to me to hear, because it’s just, I don’t know, I just do it. It just feels totally natural. Like I don’t feel special or different in any type of way. So there’s that. 

Also my philosophy on death. I mean, I’ve seen hundreds and hundreds of people die. You know, I’ve worked with a lot of people as a death doula, but also as an RN, I worked with mainly people at the end of life. So I’ve seen a lot of people die. I worked the front lines of COVID. I saw hundreds of people die just in that little tiny chunk of time. So I’ve been present for lots and lots of deaths. 

My personal philosophy on death is just that we are just all energy and energy never ever dies. It only changes. And so when we die, I mean, I believe that we’re just going on to the next thing. And in my belief, the next thing is better than here. It’s more beautiful there than here. Not that there’s anything wrong with being here. It’s beautiful and amazing being here, but just imagine going on to something even better, you know, especially when you’re dying, because in your last moments of life, it’s not so beautiful. And it’s not the best place you’ve ever been. You’re like, get me out of here. So you’re going to somewhere better. You’re not going to feel pain anymore. You know, you’re not going to be suffering from this disease.

You know, what does that mean as far as what happens when when we change? You know, I don’t have an answer for that. I believe in all things and everything. You know, people who have religious beliefs, that’s beautiful. And I’m here for that. You know, people who believe more in a reincarnation thing. That’s beautiful. I’m here for that. I don’t know how our energy changes. I have no idea. I just know that it does. You know, I know that I had a medium once tell me that everybody that I’ve been with as they died is here with me still, helping me and guiding me on this way. And I believe that every single client that I work with, you know, after they’re gone, I believe that they’re still here a little bit in some way, some way that I don’t really understand, but they’re still here and they’re still around. And I even still talk to them out loud all the time. I ask them for help. What should I do? Should I do this or should I not do this? So that’s just kind of how I do this and what my philosophy is on that.

Ruthie Miller (18:57.482)

So you mentioned cultural beliefs and cultural values. Do you kind of tailor your services based on that? Everybody has different spirituality and different needs and pain management and all that kind of stuff. So I imagine every client is gonna be different and you’re able to tailor your services.

Kacie Gikonyo (19:16.514)

Yeah, so that’s what’s really beautiful about how we don’t work for the medical system. So there is no square box of what I can do for you. It depends on what you need from me. And so every single client gets a different type of service. There’s not two people that get the same exact thing because there’s not two people who need the same exact thing. You know, I’ll have a client whose daughter is a nurse. They need a little bit less from me because she’s a nurse. She has that little expertise that I have already that I don’t need to give them. They need more of the emotional and spiritual support. Whereas I have this client over here who’s got just this one 20 year old son and that’s it. And that’s the person who’s got to handle everything. They need my help. They need a lot of help there. So absolutely. And even as far as what it can look like.

I have clients who I support virtually. They don’t live in the same state as me. They found me on social media, they wanna work with me, and so I support them virtually. I have clients even kind of locally that I only support virtually just because sometimes my time is limited. Sometimes I have clients where it’s part of our plan to go places. I had a client who at the end of her life, she’d wanted to go to an apple orchard and to go here and to go there and she wanted to know that she would be with someone safe. Well, I’m a nurse and if something went terribly wrong, I would know what to do right away. So this was part of our plan. Sometimes it’s just that I come visit for once a month like the death doula is doing with your mom. 

So absolutely, like services are completely custom. We meet first, free consultation. I wanna know everything, what’s going on, what’s the rundown? And then we kind of work together to determine like here’s what I think would probably work best for us. You know, what are your thoughts? And we just kind of do it that way.

Leyla Seka (21:01.233)

Amazing. So this is a slight switch, but it’s sort of in the same vein. So you have Death Doula school, you’re building a Death Doula empire. You have a vision. So how does one become a Death Doula? Just like the training, and you don’t need to give me every detail, but just like relative. What does it take? What does one do?

Kacie Gikonyo (21:24.984)

Well, if anyone wants to become a death doula, you want to go to death doula school because death doula school is the most comprehensive training program out there. But as far as how to become a death doula, all you do is take a training program. So it’s just a certificate program. You know, it’s not like a license or anything like that yet. But, you know, that’s all you have to do is kind of pick a program. Now there are many programs out there, so you just have to be careful which program you choose. You know, some of them are are much smaller cost, but they’re going to teach you a much smaller amount of information and then they’re going to want you to buy more and buy more and buy more and buy more. And so in order to get everything you need, now you’ve invested in all of all of these different training courses. The goal of my course of Death Doula School is to teach you everything that you need to know, including how to run a business. Death doulas have to open their own businesses. I was a nurse. Nurses know nothing about business, you know, and I realized that when I had to quickly run a business and was like, I don’t know marketing. Like, what is that? I’m a nurse. I don’t have to do that. You people were like, you need to get out and network. I’m like, yeah, Googling, what is networking? 

Ruthie Miller (22:33.618)

What is networking? That’s awesome.

Kacie Gikonyo (22:50.542)

You know, like just the most ridiculous, the most ridiculous things I didn’t know, because I came from a completely different world. And you know, everybody that is a death doula is always coming from something else. You know, most people are, they’ve been in healthcare, they’re social workers. Some are coming from completely different backgrounds. They are done computer stuff, they are marketing, they’re IT, whatever it is that brought you there. People always kind of have something else going on in the background. So, Death Doula School teaches you everything you need to know. It teaches you business training, how to get clients, how to get your name out there, because that’s most important thing. But then how to be a Death Doula, everything Death Doulas do. But then also, Death Doulas are completely non-medical.

But as a nurse, it is my belief that a death doula who has been trained on the medical aspects of death and dying is just invaluable, so much more valuable than one who hasn’t received that type of training. So death doula school is really heavy on all of the things that you could see and how you can support the family, how you can guide them into calling hospice when necessary, and also hospice. A lot of death doula training programs don’t really teach you much about hospice, but we work beautifully hand in hand with hospice.

And so if you can create a great relationship with the hospices in your area, then that can really benefit you greatly. Also, it’s important for us to know everything that hospice does. I come into the picture before someone signs on to hospice, people don’t know anything about hospice, just like they don’t know anything about death. So I can come in and start educating about hospice. know, a lot of people think two things: that hospice comes in and like moves in and 24 seven takes care of things, which is very, you know, not not the case. They come in for about an hour a week, usually. And then the other thing that people get confused about is they think that hospice is like a place where you go and you’re like, we’re just going to take her to hospice and she’ll just be there. Like, that’s not really the case either. So the other part is people always think that you wait till the last few days to utilize hospice, but we can utilize hospice for months and months and months beforehand. So I just love kind of getting in, you know, and explaining all of that to the clients, but making sure that the death doulas know that too. I think it’s really important for us to know everything that hospice does. 

So that’s how you become a death doula. You find a death doula training program that feels right for you. Make sure it’s going to give you all the education and support that you need. And you just do it.

Leyla Seka (25:00.559)

Yeah, I think Jimmy Carter, his last lesson to all of us was that hospice can last a really long time. It’s not like a last three days of your life kind of thing.

Ruthie Miller (25:10.062)

He was in hospice for a couple of years, wasn’t he? 

Kacie Gikonyo (25:09.208)

Yeah, I believe it was over a year, and that is super not common, but I have seen that before. Something that people don’t often realize too is sometimes you bring hospice in, and people get better because now they’re getting, you know, even a little bit more support and things like that than they were before. So I’ve totally seen hospice go on for such a long time. But, know, even like as far as what type of equipment hospice can provide. You know, I’ll have clients where like, you know, they’re about to go out and buy a wheelchair and buy an oxygen tank and buy this and buy that. it’s like, no, no, no, no. Hospice will give us all of that stuff and you don’t have to buy any of it, you know? And so you don’t know what you don’t know, right? And just having somebody there to be like, Hey, here’s what this is. Here’s what this looks like. You know, it’s so incredibly helpful to remove so much of the stress in an already stressful situation.

Ruthie Miller (26:03.698)

So what about something like pain management though? I mean, it sounds like you could do that because you’re a nurse, but you know, if a hospice person only comes in once a week or something, and your doula is not a nurse, how do you handle something like pain management?

Kacie Gikonyo (26:18.626)

So the family does, the family provides all of the medications. So the hospice would come in once, about once a week, the hospice nurse and she educates, know, here’s what the plan is, here are the medications and here’s how you do it. But that is a huge shock to most people because they’re like, wait, who’s going to be giving them the medicine? Like, it’s you, it’s you. And I am a nurse and a death doula, but as a death doula, I am not working in the role of a nurse. So I do not give medications because that crosses a risky boundary for me, you know, with liability and things like that. 

So I have this knowledge and I never use it in a nurse way. You know, I would never say like, you should just give them a little bit more of this or that. I would always say, I think you need to call the hospice nurse and get some advice on the medication. And that works out great because hospice would hate me if I was stepping on their toes giving medical advice. And I don’t want to have that negative relationship. And I don’t want to work in that role. I want to be supporting you in a different way.

So I want you to call hospice and get advice from them as far as you know what, but a lot of times people just don’t even know when to do that. You know, like, well, I can’t, I haven’t been sleeping well at night. Okay. Well, what medications are you taking at night? Well, I’m not taking any. Maybe you call hospice and let them know you’re not sleeping well at night because they can give you some medications, and it’s just that little, little bit of help. People are like, okay. That’s a great idea. You know, next thing you know you’ve got them set up with something and they’re sleeping like a champ through the night. Just little bits of help that people need through this whole transition.

Leyla Seka (27:48.594)

The medicine thing was a real shock, having to give him the medicine. All of us really took a step back there. We had to like sort of suck it up and get in there and do it. I did not expect that at all. I was taken aback by that, so I can attest to that one too.

Kacie Gikonyo (28:06.156)

Yeah, this is why I am such an advocate for end of life planning because I love, I wanna talk about it when you’re 20 and when you’re 30 because I want you to understand what that looks like. Like not only giving medication, right? You know, had people understood beforehand what that was like, maybe you have a certain amount of money set aside for caregivers and nurses who you can have come in and give medication so that you don’t have to. But even more importantly, think about, you know, 95% of us are going to be incontinent at the end of life, meaning that we’re going to need somebody to change us. And do you want that to be your kids or your sister, brother, whoever, whoever is going to be your caretaker? Do you want it to be that person? Or do you want to have money set aside so you can be like, no, no, like, I just want us to be able to be together so I can hire caregivers to come in and do kind of the dirty work, if you will. And each person is different. Some, mean, I would be the one to do all of the dirty work for a family member of mine because I’m a nurse and that’s just who I am.

So each person’s different. Some people want to be hands-on in that situation and some people really don’t. So it’s just important to understand what that looks like so that you can properly plan for like, I don’t want my kids to have to do this for me. I need to start saving money now because having an in-home caregiver, if you need it 24 seven, I mean that can cost outrageous amounts of money. So just kind of little seeds I love to plant early.

Ruthie Miller (29:26.77)

That’s a really good one. Do you ever encounter people who are resistant to your services? Like a kid, a child who has hired you to help his or her parents and then the parents are like, no, absolutely not. What do you do in that situation?

Kacie Gikonyo (29:42.83)

So I haven’t, but it is usually like the kid. If I’m working with somebody who is very elderly, then it’s always the kid, the child, you know, the children who have called me and said, I want you to work with my dad or my mom. The person is always resistant to the idea. So they’re always like, well, you know, you can’t tell them you’re a death doula because they don’t want to hire in a death doula – which I hate, you know, but I do have the nurse thing to kind of fall back on, which is lucky for me because I’ll come in and tell them I’m an end of life nurse.

Ruthie Miller (30:13.094)

That sounds like a little bit more acceptable, maybe, if you’re of a certain age.

Kacie Gikonyo (30:13.326)

As long as you say nurse. Yeah, as long as you say, nurse. And now they’re like, okay, it’s a nurse. But then once, once we start talking and once they realize that they have these thoughts and these worries and these fears, and they didn’t have anywhere to put them before I got there, I find that, I mean, every single time they very quickly opened up and I’ve been like, okay, now let me tell you what I really am and what I really do. You know, I’m a doula and here’s what I do.

You know, I come into this situation as a pillar of support. I’m here to help you, but I’m also here to help your kids because they’re going through this with you. And that’s what gets them every single time because they love their kids and who is going to take care of their kids when they’re gone. I’m going to make sure they make it through this hole. You know, I’m going to be that one. And so now they love me. Now they love me. So you just got to, you got to find the little things, you know.

Leyla Seka (31:06.873)

The worries are crazy. Like my mom, the first session with her death doula, she spent the whole time talking about her clothes. Who’s gonna take my clothes? My sister and I are bigger than my mom. She’s like extra, extra small. I am not extra, extra small. She’s like, who’s gonna get all my clothes? What’s gonna happen to my clothes? I was like, this is what she wanted to talk to you about? And she’s just very worried about her clothes. So I was like, okay, my skinny niece is gonna take all your clothes.

Kacie Gikonyo (31:28.238)

Yes! Exactly. 

Leyla Seka (31:36.643)

Relax, relax. lots of stuff. Obviously, it’s like all of the like, I’m gonna end, right? I was saying to my sister, only three people know that dad died today. Like me, you, and mom, right? I mean, everyone, like our kids and our husbands and everyone knows because we’ve told them, but like, we’re the only three that woke up this morning and we’re like, yeah, he died a year ago today. 

And it’s kind of weird when you think about a whole life and just three people remember the day you died. And I mean, the reality is, very few of us are gonna be super famous and written in history, right? In fact, most of us are not. So thinking about that last bit of time and just making it as easy on everyone as possible so the memories are as sweet as they can be. Because as you said, it’s rough. I mean, giving birth was rough. I did that. That was hard and hurt, right? And so far watching death, the little bit I’ve seen, looks kind of hard and like it hurts.

Kacie Gikonyo (32:24.91)

Yeah.

Leyla Seka (32:33.361)

So I think what you do is amazing. A death doula is helping my mom, a death doula is helping my mother-in-law. I wish that I had known about it when my dad was getting sick so that I could have figured out a way to add it, although he had dementia and was a pain in the ass. Dementia is the worst. But I think what you do, Kacie, I’m gonna do it.

Kacie Gikonyo (32:51.501)

Yes.

Leyla Seka (32:57.969)

Like I’m gonna have a death doula. I’m gonna start soon. You just kind of gave me permission to start thinking about doing it even though I’m not dying right now.

Kacie Gikonyo (33:04.844)

Whenever, yeah. And you can have it written in your end of life plans too. So I mean, if you haven’t done your end of life planning or even if you can, I mean, it can be inserted in there. Like I want to work with a death dual at the end of life. And I’m so passionate about having people do that. You know, there’s more and more people that are doing that nowadays that, you know, come 20, 30, 40 years when all of these people are reaching the end of their life, there’s going to be a ton of people out there who have in their end of life planning that they want to work with a death dual. So I love that.

Ruthie Miller (33:31.922)

This was super helpful. Kacie, this is about all the time we have today, but we so appreciate you coming and being so open with us and talking us through these issues and these things that we have been lucky enough not to need to think about for most of our lives so far. 

Everybody, you can learn more about Kacie at deathdoulakacie.com, and @deathdoulakacie on the various social channels. So look out for her. She is amazing. And we are so thankful that she was able to join us today.

Kacie Gikonyo (34:07.936)

Thank you so much. I was so grateful to be here.